The Women in these damn comics are wrong!

[Shawn]

I ****ing hate these comics and find the depictions of the women to be vomitous. Honestly I spell out my opinions elsewhere, and freely so without being edited, but that was WAY restrained due to that forums rules.


HE-MAN AND THE MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE #12

that sparked a debate, A debate I wish we all where having as it applies to everyone who reads this comic IMO.

http://www.he-man.org/forums/boards/...cussion/page32

I bring it up in this place because I think this place fosters a better sense of freedom when talking about stuff like this. I continued a certain tangent of the conversation to the Tar Swamp. I think the video you are about to watch will force you to think and post something of value in response. Since the Tar Swamp is a private closed forum, only registered forum members can see, I fear that this new era we live in (Facebook & Twiter) that people who want to join in might never even be aware of the topic being discussed. Honestly I want to start a firestorm. I want you to fight me tooth and nail to get me to change my mind, just as I would ask you to listen to my words and be willing to do the same. We can't have an honest open dialogue if we are not willing to admit that we might be wrong sometimes. Anybody who is reading this is a member of our community, and I want EVERYBODY to see the following... and consider it in regards to what DC and Mattel are doing to our woman...Because I find it to be morally reprehensible and I HOPE I am not alone...

... Sorry ladies, we just can't help it... (aka how men make women feel)

Because we don't even understand that how we think/act makes you feel about your self.

http://www.themarysue.com/dustin-hoffman-tootsie/


Do you understand that and feel a deep sense of shame? I did.

Do You now have a deeper appreciation of the hardship we put women through?...I now do.

My mom was a strong woman who worked and my dad stayed home with us at a young age. She was better and more traditionally education thus made more money. My father had problems with math and test taking. I have the same problems in fact. He didn't like me playing with "dolls" (She-Ra "action figures") and almost had a heart attack when he saw me combing their hair. Little did he know I was just trying to get the mud out. He completely got over it once he realized that it's He-Man's sister and her friends. He was a good man who respected everybody. He only ever once said anything remotely chauvinistic in relation to his 12 year old self and his first girl friend...He was a man's man with out ever having to be "macho", and his definition of gender roles was always adapting.

Growing up with parents like that is probably the reason I'm a "sensitive guy". Before I saw this video I thought I was "the perfect guy" I didn't oogle women, talk about them in overly sexual ways, I hold the door open (for everybody) and even let the women pick up the check and drive me once in a while on dates. Which works for me because I HATE driving. I shy away from "guy talk" because it always regresses into the same penis measuring alpha male contests and conquests...Sorry ladies, we just can't help it...We can only try and do our best to always be respectful. most of the time we don't even realize how disrespectful we are being. Even still, after I saw this video I felt a DEEP sense of shame.

I realized I had to try even harder because I saw a lot of my self in that video. All of my female friends are attractive, I've had a crush on all of them at some point. (shuu don't tell em) That is most likely true for all men I would imagine? I try and stay friends with women after we break up...When the relationship didn't end in a melt down...I suddenly realized that in the past I have actively rejected relationships (romantic and otherwise) towards women I find unattractive...I didn't even realize it. Then of course that reminded me of all the ass holes who have rejected me my whole life...I felt like dirt. Lower then dirt. I felt like a lawyer... As a man, I can never understand what/how a woman feels. Gender politics go back to the stone age...I can sympathize because all my life I have struggled with my weight...I often feel devalued or less then human due to my size...I'm not equating the two, just comparing and contrasting them. I could be a thousand pound fat man, and I will still be a man...

which brings me to the following thread, the source for this one. I was going to put the above video in to that thread, but it was getting off topic. Some people did not understand or simply did not agree with what I was saying.

http://www.he-man.org/forums/boards/...cussion/page34

I really hope that anyone who failed to understand my whole meaning has learned something about how we perceive women and how we as men portray them. How society (made up and ruled by us) treat them and make them feel... I agree with Dustin Hoffman, the "brainwashing" (as he so aptly put it) is deeply ingrained in us all. It's primal. How powerful that emotion of "I am better then you" is. Nobody likes to feel less then. I learned my behavior was hurtful and I sought to change it. I'm always trying to be a better more respectful person probably because of my parents.

Ridureyu's thoughts on a different topic perfectly summed it up the whole problem.

if the Ultimate Evil is a woman, then it would be perceived as an anti-woman statement. It's not your fault, it's not the political-correctness crowd's fault, and it's not really anything except millennia of oppression and all that.

http://www.he-man.org/forums/boards/...-Thread/page28

It isn't any one persons faults, it's a all of society that needs to changes it's thinking IMO.

What do you think?

Am I just exaggerating the situation?

Am I being "overly PC?"

Does Dustin Hoffman have to "stop acting like such a little girl"

Mostly I'd love to here from the ladies and what they think and feel...

[D.M.]

I absolutely agree.
These neo-DC comics are THE worst MOTU comics thus far. Not only are they blatantly sexist, but waaay too damn violent. I mean, you have He-Man who sees nothing wrong with slicing and spilling blood out of his opponents. A guy who posses the ultimate power which makes him THE MOST powerful man in the universe, a guy who saves even the lives of his ENEMIES. (Just what the hell is it with turning childhood icons into sadists?!)

Someone like him going around slicing and smashing opponents into a puddles of blood... it's excessive force, man! He's above killing. He's above harming living beings. He's the ultimate hero!

Yet there are people who defend it all by saying it's "a mature take"... because, you know, being violent, eager to kill and treating women like sex objects is what maturity is all about... Is this 21st century, BTW? Or have we started progressing backwards instead of forward?

Just imagine if He-Man got the same treatment as the female characters. He'd have smallest possible underwear which would emphasize the size of his genitalia, his "v-line" and ***** hair would be showing, his arse would be visible and he'd have a harness that is designed in such way that it doesn't much obstruct the view of his torso. There'd be outcry from those very same people who defended such treatment of female characters!

[MegaGearMax]

People's tastes have changed over time. They would see the Filmation version as a kid's cartoon, where He-Man can wrap enemies in the floor and throw them across the horizon. Some fans think it's ludicrous for characters to have weapons and no one gets hurt or killed.
For the record, I don't think that the creators hold Filmation in high regard like some hardcore fans who swear by that canon. In their interviews, they go on about how silly characters acted. Even TG says that Filmation episodes would be adventures that are told to children.

I do agree that the use of boobs and gore doesn't equal maturity, although they are mature elements. In the new comics defense, they DO tackle Adora pretty well. She was a Force Captain of the Horde. Imagine all of the atrocities that she must have committed?

Skeletor killing the Sorceress pretty much laid out that this wasn't a cartoon where he would keep her alive long enough for He-Man to save her, knowing that He-Man is on his way to confront him. What would a villain do? Take the Sorceress off the table so there is no rescue.

Evil-Lyn sleeping with Nolar Black is arguable. I can see it because evil women use men with sex. IIRC, the place that Nolar had to break into was shielded from magic, so even if she ensorcelled Nolar, the spell might wear off as soon as he entered the area. However, I do think that Lyn could have forced him to do it by threatening loved ones or something.

[Shawn]

"adventures that are told to children" uh, Yeah. WTF man. they ARE CHILDREN'S TOYS! Stop being SO grown up about it. That is the problem. Too many adults talking about toys as if they shouldn't be fore kids. They are toys. They are ALWAYS meant for kids. That shouldn't change. You shouldn't let your inner child die and become so hardened that you forget that. It makes me want to cry for you that your inner child is that far away from your heart. :-(

Batman the Animated Series - Justice League Unlimited is as "mature" as children' toys/cartoons/comics need to get. PG13ish....

That isn't to say Batman or Wolverine can't get a little bit more light R (age 16ish) so long as it isn't pornographic or full of sniff like MOST comics today.

[GarrettCRW]

It speaks pretty lowly to the maturity of "fans" who can't enjoy a childhood favorite without a heaping load of sex, violence, and grittiness injected into it. Furthermore, it's lazy writing to insist on the most violent and/or sexual resolution to a plot predicament instead of creating something different.

[zombihamma]

I think you hit a note when you said' it's deeply ingrained,..it's Primal ..... Your right it is, and there is nothing wrong with that , it gos back to the cavemen, if your the strongest you rule, Now I'm not saying that it's all fine, I have a very powerful Hansome wife, who while being much smaller than me and if it came down to pure fighting, I would most certainly win ,is often the victor in any kind of row, she is if you will, the sargent major of our house, To me it's all in who you pick for a mate, a friend of mine runs, weight trains, and is a Hansome fella, his wife,... Pie faced and large,with green teeth (true!!!) at the pub, another friend of mine asks him," what do you see in her?" he said "she's the smartest woman I've ever met,.. That and a great lay" My point being is that people are attracted to attractive people, not beautiful people, good hair, shows signs of Health like a dog, strong body, good teeth, good grooming, clear skin and eyes, the list gos on and on and that certainy helps, it shows sighns of loving yourself, as for Dustin bless him he just learned one of his life lessons late , nothing wrong with that, and at least he did, the trick is to treat all people equal , As for the violence of He-man that is a whole different subject, if the comics overly sexualise women offend, then don't buy it,... In the real world the amount of people it reaches is tiny , Shying away from locker room talk,.. Don't worry so much mate , just be prepared that if a woman walks in the room,..don't stop the conversation, carry on, you might find her laughing her ass off

[GREP-A-TOR]

If you are going to start an argument and then post a pic of a naturally sexy Green Goddess, then I am out of this conversation.

What I am for. Equal pay for equal work - women deserve to be paid the same.
A woman's right to choose when it comes to her own body and reproductive system.

Especially in the MOTU universe, everyone is roided out and sexy.

[MegaGearMax]

Personally, my biggest problem with the new comics was putting a Nu 52-like armored battlesuit on the barbarian-like He-Man. Costume sexism was averted until He-Man started wearing that armor because the main male hero was the least clad, making everyone else more acceptable by comparison. In fact, more fans complained far moreso about Teela's then blonde HAIR color than her original Nu 52 costume, which is the same as her original leotard, but showing her midrift. That's how insignificant her lack of clothes was to He-Man's.

Back to the Nu 52 He-Armor: It's like giving Tarzan, Conan, Dejah Thoris or Red Sonja a high-tech battlesuit with a mandarin collar. If you don't like scantily clad fantasy pulp characters, then a fantasy book like MOTU isn't for you. That goes for the females as well. I'd expect to see some skin in a sword and sorcery comic. If skin makes you squeamish, then you should read something else.

[Black Zodac]

My issue with the new comics is that the male characters have been armoured up to the point of looking like they are all members of the Avengers, while the female characters have been armoured down. Why would a female soldier like Teela want her midriff exposed during battle? It just doesn't look right to me. That said, my biggest issue with these comics isn't the way the women are drawn, but the way that the women are portrayed in the comics. They all have horrible personalities (or worse: some have no personality at all). As for that cover of the Green Goddess… well… the character IS suppose to be a Goddess.

[Shawn]

Thank you Black Zodac for getting my whole point. "the way that the women are portrayed" in these comics, and in media in general was my whole point. Men get more armor, women get less. That is just a fact of life with comic book superheroes. It isn't equal Woman are sex objects and men are the avatars. Women read comics to, they should be more appealing to BOTH genders...Like FILMATION was.

Would you feel comfortable if MOTU was more like Twilight? No you wouldn't. Would you feel comfortable if it was more like 50 shades of gray? No you wouldn't. The opposite is true DC's MOTU for women. That isn't to say that Twlight and 50 shades of Gray are acceptable. They are trash that people should be ashamed of. We are not primal creatures ruled by base instincts we should all stop acting like it.

What about the gay stuff? Rememebr when Emiliano (or was that Enza) was commissioned that drawing of he-man and bow? That upset a lot of people! And that wasn't even OVER sexualized...but was just a little...

Admittedly this thread is convoluted and disjointed, I should have reworked this thread, for THIS forum. Sorry about that. I expected people to continue from the.Org and that wasn't fair. so confusion as to the nature of this thread is understandable.

[MegaGearMax]

Some of us also aren't prudes, who think that showing skin is evil or automatically equals sex.

If He-Man hadn't covered up, no one would be complaining.

[Shawn]

MGM, except for the couple points I directly continue from your discussion points, I'm not directing ALL of this at you, just using it to springboard off into a further explain and clarify my meaning and purpose. Trust me there are no hard feelings towards you. I just have a lot to say on this topic....on to the rant!

;-)

It's nothing to do with being prudish. It's about age appropriate content. I like Game of Thrones, Conan and Spartacus Blood and Sand...None of those would be appropriate for a 13 year old. MOTU should be for the same intended age range as it's been since 1982. We can grow up to enjoy adult things, but lets leave the children's stuff to the kids, or else what will they have power rangers and pokemon? Let us try and enjoy MOTU for what is was/is.

What MOTU has changed into is frankly abysmal, half ass and ****ing insulting!

skin + context = sex Y/N (pick which one applies in what scenario.

Beach.
making a family film
day at the park
Living Room
Other persons living room
Bathroom
Bedroom
Honey moon suit
The desk... (trick question)
Doctor's office
Hotel room
Motel room - that has rats running around...
while fighting monsters and aliens.
when fighting with oils... ;-)
when answering door for pizza delivery person...

That is my point. Hopefully that is abundantly clear. LOL.

full body armor on he-man, exposed abs, waist, back, spine, chest + contortionist poses for Teela. = sexist.

Death of Sorceress & Shadow Weaver by previously less powerful men. Disempowering/abandonment of Adora & Marlena. Absence of other POPular females (and brutal slaying of Flutterina!) and complete personalty alteration (super bitch) Teela...(oh, and the stripping, that is new) these are the things that are sexist. These are alteration of previously powerful (equal, and in some cases more powerful then the men) women, in order to make the men MORE powerful. That is sexist. That is a fact. Not an opinion. You can be ok with the sexsim. Some women are because they have been programed to bealive they are less then men. That is what Dunstan Hoffman was speaking to. That we Make women think they are supposed to be weaker then us, when in certain regards (in regards to pain threshold especially) they are our betters. When a woman believes that she must use her body that is an example. A man would never be told to "use his body", and little boys are not trained to use sex as a weapon. They are not indoctrinated into looking pretty" or "playing house and dolly". Boys are given their own struck code of manliness. Hardly any child is permitted to play with and act they way that feels natural TO THEM. We fill children's heads with a lot of nonsense. MOTU was never one of those things. Until now, until these comics. This has been a HUGE issue, especially in comic books the last few years as more and more women try and (often prevented) from working in the traditional (superhero) comic book media. I think a lot of these ideas sound off putting or crazy, or just stupid is because it is not something we are expected to consider.
Surely anyone who regular reads comic book news websites has a cursory knowledge of the phenomenon. The video Game world? The HUGE internet backlash and praise for youtuber Feminist Frequency

if anybody cares to learn about Geek culture news through the perspective of a woman I highly suggest

http://www.themarysue.com/

To be frank; I am shocked at the lack of discussion going on in regards to this topic in our on line communities. Perhaps it is going on in more isolated groups? Have we frightened off what women we use to have in our community. I can't be making a mountain out of a mole hill, not with all the other sites I visit reporting on and discussion of the treatment of women in media today.

Your point about clothing? A mirror to my comment, or a disagreement? It is confusing to me when we disagree, and when we agree.

[Anti-Guru]

I probably shouldn't say much because truthfully, I haven't read any of these comics. But I will anyway. From what I have seen, they are absolute garbage. In fact, modern comic books in general are garbage. What happened to pages of frames and storytelling? From what I see, it's all splash pages and dynamic action shots. To me these aren't what comic books are supposed to be. Everything looks like friggin graphic novels and have the same low grade quality art as them.

About the character designs... a total slap in the face to the property. To go ahead and RADICALLY change an iconic group of characters to look like modern super heroes is utterly insulting. Even modern superheroes aren't what they should be, like the new 52 garbage.

[WingDagger]

I probably shouldn't say much because truthfully, I haven't read any of these comics. But I will anyway. From what I have seen, they are absolute garbage. In fact, modern comic books in general are garbage. What happened to pages of frames and storytelling? From what I see, it's all splash pages and dynamic action shots. To me these aren't what comic books are supposed to be. Everything looks like friggin graphic novels and have the same low grade quality art as them. About the character designs... a total slap in the face to the property. To go ahead and RADICALLY change an iconic group of characters to look like modern super heroes is utterly insulting. Even modern superheroes aren't what they should be, like the new 52 garbage.

They're actually a pretty good read. Honestly!


But then, I'm a Transformers fanboy, so I've probably seen this argument more times than I'd care to! Change is good for a brand. Yes, it's not the same as has gone before, but accept that this is a different take on what are essentially the same characters and you'll enjoy it more. To continue my Transformers analogy, the 1980's/90's Marvel Transformers comic was totally different to the what is currently being put out by IDW, even though (for the most part) they're using familiar characters. Just alternative versions of them.

And it's funny you should mention the New 52, 'cos technically, this new comic forms part of that universe. Marlena hails from Prime Earth's Earth, Eternia is an alternate dimension of this universe and PE's John Constantine has full knowledge of Skeletor, and vice versa. The MotU Vs. DC cross over establishes this explicitly.

[Draego-Man]

I don't mind the comics, but yeah, the female characters are not exactly good representations of women.

[GREP-A-TOR]

I agree, they are great representations.

[wallbie]

I'm letting my subscription run out because I honestly don't find the storyline that awesome. I bought the mini-series hoping I'd be wrong, but lo and behold every issue until the sixth one had Adam in all the action instead of He-Man when he was the one on the cover selling the book. By the time He-Man comes around, it was more of a cleaning house encounter with Skeletor than something that could've (should've) lasted two, maybe three, issues. I'm sorry to say the only things I find interesting is the Adora/Teela relationship from when they were kids and the Orko traitor angle. I understand the need to reinvent costumes here and there, but He-Man in red tights and Skeletor channeling Juggernaut isn't exactly the way to go in my book. They aren't as bad as that hideous Snake Armor, but not much better nonetheless.

[GREP-A-TOR]

well said man, I can't even be bothered to download them via torrent at this point, I just don't care.

[wallbie]

Yeah, I think the two most recent issues are somewhere around my kitchen island/bar still in the plastic they were shipped in because I have to put a heavy book or something on them to flatten them out from the mail carrier folding them. That's another big reason why I just don't have comics shipped to me. Still, I'm not at all phased not keeping up to date on them. I honestly believe the last issue I read was Despara invading Eternia and Battle Cat clawing her face. I'm way behind.